Interview with Noah Gross About the hisotry of Israeli martial arts, conducted by Miguel Angel Gascon, head of International Defensive Tactics school (Madrid, Spain).
First published in spanish here: http://www.kapap-spain.com
First at all thank you for accepting this interview.
Q: Could you tell is about your Martial Arts Background?
A: Well, I’m 43 year old and started my first training in Judo at age 6 and have been practicing martial arts off and on ever since. From Judo I moved on to Bujinkan Ninjutsu which I was involved with for about 22 years, achieving the rank of sixth Dan. I taught Ninjutsu for about ten years and always had an interest in weapons, practical applications of Ninjutsu and martial arts History in general. Over the years I did some cross training in Tae Kwando, and Arnis. Some time around 1999/2000 I became interested in Western martial arts of the middle ages, renaissance and Victorian era. I joined ARMA and was a member for several years. 2004 was a major turning point for me as I had been doing research into Kapap and western martial arts and had come to the conclusion that I had to do things differently. I was attempting to make my weapons training more practical which of course also influenced my empty hand training. It was also the year in which I met Alexander Zhelezniak and became involved in the founding of A.C.T – Armed Combat and Tactics. Our meeting in which we sparred full contact with weapons forced me to broaden my conception of training for combat with weapons and led me to become a student under Alexander and over the years an integral part of the formation of the school and system. My thanks and gratitude to my teachers, Doron Navon, Mark Davis, Moty Nativ and Alexander Zhelezniak.
Q: How many years have you been researching the martial arts of Israel?
A: I had been thinking of doing research into the history of Israeli martial arts for several years before actually starting in 1999 after meeting and interviewing Maishel Hurwitz who was 78 years old at the time. Maishel had been a member of the Hagana and Palmach before the foundation of the state of Israel and had developed and taught a fighting method with a short stick.
This meeting had left me with many questions unanswered and a great hunger to know more. Most of all I was puzzled to learn that long before the name Krav Maga had ever been used, there was a system of hand to hand combat called Kapap and it was what the defense forces of the Jewish community in Israel used in the 1940’s. This in turn led to the question, what happened that Kapap had died out and was replaced by Krav Maga?
A question it had taken me many years to find the answer to.
Q: Why you decide to start your research about Israeli Martial Arts?
A: See question above 🙂
Q: What’s the title of your first kapap book?
A: My book, published in 2010 is titled “Kapap from the field to the battlefield”
And covers the development of the hand to hand fighting method known as Kapap from 1880 to 1948.
Q: When will we enjoy it in English?
A: I wish I could give you a firm date but it’s too early to tell.
The translation is half way done and I’d like to have it published in English within 2011. This in turn would open the door to translating it into other languages as well.
Q: Who were the most influential martial arts instructors in Israel at the time of the development the Kapap?
A: There were many instructors of Kapap in the 1940’s but I’d have to say that there were, only a hand full who formulated the core of Kapap as an approach as well as the content. They would have to be Gershon Kopler (Jujutsu and Boxing), Yehuda Markus (Jujutsu/Judo) and Maishel Hurwitz (Short stick and walking stick methods). Another name worth mentioning is Yitzhak Shtibel (Boxing).
Q: could You tell us what was Kapap based on and who could teach it?
A: At the time, back in the 1940’s, Kapap was not an integrated system like Krav Maga is today, there was no grand master or head of the system. It was rather a paramilitary and then military approach to training combatants in hand to hand combat. Instructors could be trained in one of several disciplines included in Kapap or all of them. They taught Jujutsu, Boxing, Knife fighting, short stick method, walking stick method, stone throwing and Bayonet.
Over the years the courses evolved and material was formalized into set lessons for instructors to teach according to manuals. So you could have an instructor teaching after 2 months of training while at the same time you could have another instructor with several years of experience the level of proficiency varied a great deal.
The head instructors such as Gershon Kopler, Yehuda Markus and Yitzhak Shtibel were men with many years of training and experience.
Q: Could you briefly tell us who was Yehuda Marcus?
A: Yehuda Marcus immigrated to Israel from Germany. As a teenager he studied Judo through the police who taught Jujutsu and Judo in Germany.
At the time of his arrival in Israel, the head instructor of Jujutsu for the Palmach and Hagana (Gershon Kopler) had just died in a secret mission.
Yehuda Markus was chosen to replace Kopler as head instructor of Jujutsu.
He was a very strong man and considered very professional. His students respected him and loved him very much for his kindness as a person.
Markus was shot and killed by mistake in a training accident in 1945 at the age of 33. He is commemorated by his students in the Palmach in a manual of practical Judo published in 1948. This manual served as the bases of material in hand to hand combat in the I.D.F and what became Krav Maga for many years.
Q: The public knows very well the figure of Imi Side Or (Lichtenfeld), but few have been in possession of as many official military documents as you have uncovered in your research.
Can you tell us when Imi was recruited and by who?
A: Imi arrived in Israel in 1942 and was recruited into the Palmach. He was recruited by Musa Zohar chief instructor of physical training for the Palmach. Musa Zohar heard about him from several members of the self defense group Imi headed in Bratislava in the late 1930’s.
Q: When did Imi become a Kapap Instructor?
A: Imi became a Kapap instructor when he joined the Palmach and was well respected for his skill and inventiveness. Most likely after he was recruited he had undergone some kind of training to teach him the curriculum of Kapap and the methods of teaching it in the Palmach. This was standard procedure for any one in this organization. When Markus was brought in to replace Kopler it was Maishel Hurwitz’s job to show him how things were done In the Palmach. As Maishel told me: “I had nothing to teach him in Judo, but I had to show him how we did things in a practical manner”, he spent two months with Markus until Markus was ready for his position.
When the state of Israel and its army the I.D.F were formed in 1948, Imi was recruited into the staff of the physical training school were he was one of 8 Kapap instructor.
Q: When did Imi’s importance as a self-defense instructor increase? And why did this occur?
A: Imi had a lot of experience in wrestling and boxing and self defense still from his days in Bratislava. Then he served as an instructor in the Palmach for several years after which he was inducted into the I.D.F and continued to serve as an instructor. By 1948 he was already very well respected and considered one of the leading instructors of Kapap with a focus on Jujutsu and knife. Over the next decade between 1948 and 1958 Imi became the lead instructor of Kapap – Krav Maga.
Q: Was Imi the developer of the concept “krav maga? If not, who was?
A: This is an interesting question with a complex answer.
First we must ask what are the concepts of Krav Maga and more importantly when were they formalized?
Krav Maga has had several phases of development some of which are easy to recognize and define and others which are harder to define.
One way of looking at it is as follows, and this only a general schematic division of time.
The first stage would be Kapap from 1940 – 1948
The second stage would be Kapap – Krav Maga1948-1958
The third stage would be Krav Maga 1958-1964
And the next would be civilian krav Maga1964 and on.
Of course it did not stop then but for this discussion it’s less important.
What is critical to understand is that Imi came into an organization that was heavily into hand to hand combat and already had a formalized training method with a defined curriculum in the various disciplines of hand to hand combat.
This organization had a structure and hierarchy of command very much like a small army or a large special-forces unit. Imi was integrated into this structure as part of it not something separate, so while he did have an influence on it so to was he influenced by it.
Given the known material documentation of the concepts behind Kapap and the curriculum taught, there is no evidence that Imi made any significant or major contribution to its formulation up until 1948.It had in fact well defined concepts and formalized methods by 1942 the time of his arrival in Israel.
Then when examining the material taught in the I.D.F during the early and mid 1950’s it becomes clear that the material is based on the Kapap of the 1940’s. Although the term Krav Maga starts being used in official documents in late 1948 it is not to be mistaken as signifying any changes in approach to hand to hand combat nor in the material being taught. In fact both names Kapap and Krav Maga are used on official documents interchangeably as late as 1958.
Even when in 1953 a committee is formed with the purpose of reviewing the material being taught in hand to hand combat or Krav Maga it is asked to choose 35 main techniques from the broader curriculum. This reflects a change in approach from much higher up in the military hierarchy at the planning level were an analysis of the needs of the military are made and it is decided to slim down the amount of material being taught.
Imi’s significance during the 1950’s is based more on his being the most experienced instructor and much less on any kind of innovation and reformulation of Krav Maga.
At the same time one should be aware that the process of change is constant, the military is constantly changing in its analysis of threats adjustment of its forces to address those threats and the adjustment of the training material and methods for its soldiers. This includes hand to hand combat as well.
In addition when a person is training and teaching the same material over extended periods of time there is also a process of adjustment and modification. Given these two facts and the knowledge that Imi was working with this material from 1942 to 1960 one can expect that he would have made changes and adjustments.
When examining what was taught as Krav Maga in 1960 in the I.D.F it is evident that Imi did bring in some concepts that were not present in the early 1950’s. Of note is the term 360 defense.
Aside from the great respect Imi is due for being a hand to hand combat instructor in the Palmach and I.D.F and leading its instruction in the I.D.F in the late 1950’s until his retirement, his choice of teaching it to civilians is of great significance. The process of working with the material and adjusting and modifying it continued in the civilian version of Krav Maga headed by Imi well into the 1980’s.
This phase I am far less familiar with so I will not comment on it.
Q: it is said that Imi took already existing techniques from other systems such as boxing and wrestling and adapted them, what do you think about this?
A: This is an interesting point I find a little ironic.
Kapap which is what Krav Maga was born out of was based on Jujutsu/Judo, Boxing and knife and stick. So from its beginning it had at its disposal all of what these disciplines had to offer. Over time the curriculum was slimed down to address the needs and limitations of military training.
How then can one say that after 20 years of this material being taught and used can someone bring in material from the very same sources it is based on?
The only reasonable answer is that now that it was being taught to civilians there was a need for more material, and far less for practical reasons.
The system worked fine for the military for more than 20 years without any additions. And in fact when I examine military Krav Maga manuals as late as 1973 almost a decade after civilian Krav Maga started the curriculum is identical in 90% to 1964, 1960 and even 1953.
Q: Why are all the techniques of Krav Maga attributed to Imi while other important figures such as Marcus are forgotten?
A: I think this happened for several reasons. By the time Imi retired he was viewed as Krav Maga, the people who knew him in the army, soldiers, officers and commanders and those who knew him from the Palmach all saw him as the leading figure and authority on hand to hand combat. Back then no one was interested in the history of its development, there were no ranks and belts organizations and grand masters, it was after all a hand to hand combat system in the military and nothing else. So no one was concerned with who developed what and when. This started being an issue many years later and many years after Imi founded civilian Krav Maga. Over time many people forgot the history which from the beginning very few people knew and so it became a fact, Imi invented Krav Maga. no less important is the fact that until 1964 when Imi opened his first civilian club no one cared what the system was called, many knew it as Kapap while others knew it as Krav Maga, and no one thought they were two different systems.
Marcus and Kopler and many other instructors died in the 1940’s while other instructors moved on into civilian life and left their past military history behind. By the time I started doing research in 1999 Krav Maga as a civilian system and military system had become so big so wide spread around the world that really no one bothered to question the “official” history given by Krav Maga people who most of the time are simply passing on what they were told.
Q: Noah, When will you publish a second book?
A: I hope to have time to sit and write my second and last book on this subject in 2012, this time it should be much quicker after writing the first one for nearly 8 years. I have more experience and have written articles and outlines for what I’d like to have in the second book. It should cover the transition from Kapap to Krav Maga between 1948 and 1964 and should have more technical information with analysis of the evolution of techniques over time; there fore it will be more of a technical book relative to my first one which leans more towards the historical.
Q: What will be the subject of this book?
A: See above answer
Waiting impatiently for the publication of your two books in English.
Thank you very much for your kindness.
Thank you Miguel for taking the time to think of these questions and give me the opportunity to get this information out to the public.
I believe that through knowing our history we come to understand better what we do and that only when we have an accurate understanding of the process by which Israeli martial arts developed can we truly appreciate and honor those who contributed to it including Imi lichtenfeld whom I have nothing but respect for.
further information available online in the following articles:
Israeli Martial Arts – A Look Into History
By Noah Gross
Edited by Dana L. Stamos
The Walking Stick in Mandatory Palestine and Israel by Noah Gross